Special Committee Meeting
Posted this morning (in PDF) on the Town website:
PUBLIC NOTICE OF MEETING
The Council of the Corporation of the Town of South Bruce Peninsula will hold a special Committee of the Whole meeting on February 20th, 2007 at 9:00 a.m. at the Council Chambers located at 315 George Street.
The purpose of the meeting is for Council follow up discussion re the Committee of the Whole meeting held on January 30, 2007 regarding future re sewer and water servicing options.
[ via South Bruce Peninsula Crier: Special Committee Meeting February 20 2007 ]
This could just be another information session, or it could become a Pipeline Shootout: maybe a vote on the addendum process to renew the water and sewer EA? and lots of vocal "we speak for all Sauble" attitude.
If you want some say in the Pipeline issue, here is maybe a chance to settle the matter once and for all.
Maybe ;)
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Stop Work On The Addendum
It is my hope that Council will draw up a motion tomorrow to be voted on at Council on Feb 26 to stop the addendum process and kill the pipeline project once and for all.
Henderson-Paddon has already been paid $65,000 out of general funds and there is $500,000 more to be spent if they continue with this addendum. Everyone in the town will have to pay again for this folly if they keep it alive. In the end there is no money for the pipline and never will be.
The original EA cost over $500,000 and that was a decade ago. This time there would be no grant to help defray the cost..
Councillor Yvonne Harron intends to vote for continuing the addendum. If she does she will tip the balance in favour of continuing and we will all get a bigger tax bill. She has not listened to her Hepworth people. Most of us at the beach just want this finished.
Re: stop work
Dodge; why would Yvonne Harron vote that way? Does she want the pipeline for Hepworth?
PS; she's my councillor too (it's a long story).
Dan O.
Councillor Harron- No Stop Work
At todays meeting Mark Wunderlich worded a resolution to continue the addendum and it is for a vote at Mondays Council meeting. Yvonne has said she will vote to continue so it will pass unless the 400 people who were at the Hepworth meeting in 2004 start calling her and tell her to vote against.
Yvonne was told in no uncertain terms when campaigning that the pipeline was not wanted. That is what this addendum is all about.
I can't figure out her logic, I could say more but I won't. Wunderlich, Kerr, Hoath and Lamont will also vote in favour.
The Amabel Property Owners Association has more than 700 members and takes the position that the addendum should stop and we should stop throwing good money after bad. Wunderlich goes against the association and I wonder why since they are his constituents. It will be very costly to continue the addendum.
In 2004 a delegation from the Property owners met with the MOE at St Clair Ave in Toronto to try and have the original EA redone. They said we had a case but we would have to wait for the addendum to update if it got that far. We now have bumpups in place asking for parts of the EA to be redone. The MOE will likely order it.
Most EAs of this magnitude cost at least half a million to do. One of the things we expect is a fully randomized sampling program to prove once and for all if there is any need for a megaproject water system. We know that we never made a short list for funding because real need was never proven. Unless this study is done properly there is no point applying for funds in the future. Anyway the only sample done in 1995 found no bad samples outside the core area. To do it right now would be at least $200,000 just for sampling because every source would have to be certified. There is little point in sampling surface water and that includes any driven point less than 12 feet deep. (must meet MOE guideline) APOA does not accept ditchwater samples and we we are certain the MOE will order a proper sampling program. The addendunm will never be finished for $20,000 as Yvonne said today.
Unless a bunch of Hepworth people start calling Yvonne and telling her "don't you dare vote for that" we are in for a lot more wasted tax dollars and we are going to waste another 4 years going around and around. We need to put a stop to this.
Every taxpayer in the whole Town of South Bruce Peninsula is going to be on the hook for this just as all the previous years costs were paid from revenue.
It is my money too and I have already called Yvonne.
Re:Addendum
Dodge; it sounds like Yvonne is following the wishes of her constituents. She would have heard want they wanted when campaigning so you may be in the minority. On the other hand you've got a split in Sauble. Anna is a pretty straight shooter so I don't know how they could get so far apart?
They are being mandated to meet Ontario regulations. It looks like all of the eggs are being put in one basket without regard of other options. Of course the other baskets never seem to get mentioned.
You point out that all of the town will pay for addendum. From the way that the voting looks it seems that that's what the rest of the town wants.
Dan O.
Hepworth said "No Pipeline"
Yvonne told me that when she was campaigning she got the message loud and clear in Hepworth - No pipeline. So they elected her. So when the chance comes to end it she chooses to keep it going. I am puzzled by her logic......
and how this is representing her constituents.
Sauble runs about 80% plus against the pipeline. Ana also got the message loud and clear during the campaign and will vote accordingly.
Has there ever been a petition?
I realize that I am coming to the table late in the "discussions". Just wondering has there ever been an actual petition done and given to councillors regarding the pipeline?
If not, I would be interested in starting one. Or if there has been, maybe it is time for a new one? One was started in Huron County for trying to save Ball's Bridge (it was saved, not necessarily by the petition, but it may have had an impact).
Where is the logic
Does logic or fact ever come into use
when some councillors are making decisions.
According to Mark, a petition signed back
in 2001 had 500 signatures stating water and
sewers were needed. What was left out was
proof that the signees were from Sauble as
all you had to do was just "scrawl" your name.
Several people signed more than once, many
names were illegible and included in the signees
were Donald Duck, Mickey Mouse, and Steve
Yserman.Can you show me their properties
in Sauble. At the water meeting in Hepworth,
well over 500 signatures (legible)
plus addresses, and phone numbers were collected.
This petition was dismissed as unimportant and never
given any due It has grown to over 700 signees.
In the election previous to the last one
Carl Noble was not elected in the Sauble ward
If the people wanted the"Pipeline" does it
not make sense to elect the person who was
pushing for it. In the last election, Carl &
John Close were both behind the Pipeline
as both always voted for it in council.
Was either elected? Are the people that stupid
that they wouldn't vote the "Pipeliners" in?
In this last election Mark W.'s vote total
dropped significantly to which he responded
in the newspaper, I'd better start listening
to the people. Is he ??
Why do some continue to push for spending good
money after bad?? Why are they not looking
for an alternative solution that people can
live with and afford. People have moved due
to fear of paying for the pipeline. Is this
acceptable ? When a councillor says it's okay
to pay another $20,000 towards this project
because thats not much money, is that being
fiscally responsible?? Aren't there other
projects in our Town that hard earned tax
dollars could be used for to move us ahead ???
Good Post Hockey17
Why indeed does Councillor Wunderlich continue to champion this meaningless petition? It could be he has thrown in with the Chanmber of Commerce thinking Chamber support and the campground vote will get him re elected next time.
Nasty
That is so corrupt (2001 petition), seems like there is a lot of that . Thanks for the information, hockey17, it is quite disturbing. It is a flagrant misuse of tax money to keep on pursuing the pipeline . It is also a dismissal the majority of people's wishes.
4 letter word "Water"
You people don’t get it, and it’s starting to tick a lot of responsible people off that the blinders are still on for those in the minority. Yes, any way you slice it, by the election results, continually 60% of the people support the water issues.
First of all, the engineers have said that for $20K, they can finish the EA. Then, with an EA completed, you will have a document to seek funding in the future. There is no funding available today at all, so there is NO application for a pipeline at the moment. As Mr. Jones stated, we will have a new Federal and Provincial government during the term of this council, and usually there are infrastructure-funding programs that come about as a result of changes in government. SBP will then be prepared with ANY alternative that council chooses to pursue, big pipeline or small systems. Bottom line is with no completed EA, you’ve exhibited fiscal irresponsibility by not completing a process and effectively thrown money away, as stated by other councilors. To not support the Motion to be tabled at the next Council Meeting to continue supporting the EA process, is totally irresponsible and displays a shortsighted view of the future of the west side of SBP.
Think of it this way. If you do not finish building your car, how will you ever get to where you need to be? Sure, some people want this or that opton, which may increase the cost, but you will need a car at some point to get where you’re going. Better than a bunch of parts sitting on a shelf.
You are fortunate that all ratepayers of SBP are paying for this now, as if it were to only apply to a few to be serviced by a pipeline or communal water system of any size, it would be very expensive for those.
And regarding Mark and Hepworth, he did say at the January COW that Council should consider an alternative excluding the Hepworth properties. He IS listening. Yvonne would support this option, I’m sure, according to the wishes of the Hepworth community.
In my opinion, Councilor Heron IS representing her constituents, AND the future of SBP. She is the “voice of reason†on council, and should be commended on her actions and statements. Someone needs to put Concillor Vukovic straight as to facts and figures, as the Mayor continually allows Vukovic to wander off topic, make inaccurate statements before her question, and allows grandstanding.
There IS no funding available now, there IS no pipeline proposal now in any size or form, and all there is is a minority group that thinks any pro-active activity associated with the word “water†is cause for alarm. Why else would the 4 anti-water people of Council vote down a proposal for water meters when every other community across Canada embraces meters. “Water†has become SBP’s four letter word, God help those who support it.
Where do you want to be?
CL1368, noticed your background info, you are a small business owner, pipeline guy . . .What is your vision of the future?
I don't think anyone here is sounding alarmist. It's called a discussion and thank goodness this place exists to discuss.
You can slice those election numbers anyway you want.
As Kee May, Hockey17 and others have pointed out, if the expenses are too much, people will just move. Is that a future? It sounds depressing. Should people be forced to leave? Sauble has been a paradise for a lot of people. That's why they vacation there, that's why they chose to live there.
My parents who have retired up at the Sauble homestead (in the family since the 1950's) don't need more whopping expenses for something that is not needed, or to go into debt for something that they do not feel is right for them (additives to water) or fix their own system that "isn't broke". Many people feel that way.
Isn't that responsible?
Hepworth Won't Be Left out.
That idea was floated purely to let Yvonne vote without guilt for the addendum to continue. It was a good strategy but Hepworth will be part of the pipeline the participation is needed for cost reasons.
Three things needed to get pipeline funding:
1) Committed and united community
2) Demonstrated and proven need.
3) A properly executed and completed Class EA.
None of the above are in place. Neither 1 or 2 are likely to ever be in place. We now know that the addendum for updating the EA will proceed. The Town can then apply for funding.
The fact they don't care whether Hepworth gets water proves to me it is not about the water in spite of CL's post above.
Carl Noble was at the Jan 30 meeting. Jaymor was there. Carl Noble was at the meeting yesterday. Read between the lines. It is still about developers and development. The old planning adage is "Developers always follow sewers". They will use all the capacity in the proposed wastewater treatment plant in less than a decade and will push for expansion. Communities who have let developers in by supplying infrastructure have found the developers become both wealthy and too powerful in political circles.
using logic logically
I feel I must use fact to show CL1368 the
fault in his % logic of the vote for the
pipeline. The only Mayoral candidate who
pushed for the pipeline and never wavered
was Carl. He received 21% of the vote. The
candidate who was against the major
pipeline project, pushing instead for
more cost effective solution was Gwen. She
received 39% of the vote. There is your
answer as to the people wanting or not
wanting the pipeline.Your logic reminds me
of a statement made by Yogi Berra who
said," 90% of hitting in baseball is half
mental." But I digress.
In your statement you said that $20k could
pay to do the EA.That would cover the
paperwork, but what about the need to
gather up-to-date data, assess it, compare
it to previous data,determine a root cause
analysis and revalidate all assumptions
and conclusions.That,and keeping in mind,
the current EA states that far beyond 80%
of wells sampled in 2001 demonstrated good
water quality and that any pollution on the
beach was attributed to the Sauble River
and NOT leaking septics, a complete review
of well water and septic system samples will
be needed at much more than $20k.
Your thought about being prepared for new
government funding considers that this
funding will be used for new systems. What about
the need to revamp current water infrastructure
throughout the whole province. Where is all this
money coming from? What government in their
right mind is going to give 2/3 funding
($26 million federal,$26 million province)
to 3100 properties here (Rv Anderson count).
Should we not be spending our hard earned
tax dollars finding a solution that is
environmentally safe and cost effective or
just sit back and hope for gov't assistance.
I have to ask. Did you have your tongue
in your cheek when you said Yvonne Harron
was the Voice Of Reason on council??
Final thought. I hear that this pipeline
"Dream" will make the TSBP flourish and prosper.
Then why isn't EVERYONE in the TSBP paying
equally for it and not just Sauble and Hepworth???
great post hockey
and as for cl's post, a great quote from Upton Sinclair:
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it."
ok maybe I wont stay away from this:)
Good Money after Bad??HMMM
In 95 I helped open a 3 million dollar school and even then with all the politics about biulding a new school and the hard feelings in created in the 3 communities now called SBP the one consensus I heard, and remember I was a Paisleyite import working at the school with no knowledge of who or what was going on , was once some infrastructure comes to Sauble (ie the topic we are talking about) the planned expansion of demographics will more than justify the school and the drawings even included expansion of the school which could occur quickly if things grew too fast. Now there is no infrastructure upgrades and as we all know if we listen to other issues other than this one, the school is in danger of closing again. A lot of hard work and the carrot of an expanding population convinced the board to keep it open. This argument, regardless of how well it is presented barely worked the last time and is not going to work again. The population boom is not coming anytime soon now and definetly not within the time lines presented to the school board 4 years ago..... and numbers of kids keeps dropping and will continue to drop.
And now some families may consider leaving as we have come to such we have "the sky is falling" group saying it will be a financial nightmare for some or all of us, which it very well could be......
So all those groups who donated money to biuld the facility, and I believe some of those groups are against any infrastructure improvements now, threw good money away.
Maybe a productive thread for this topic would be ideas what to do with the biulding if we don't get some movement one way or the other.
Aging Demographic No Kids
The perception in '95 seemed overly optomistic in many ways. I remember Dick Thomas saying he was going to have municipal water out front within a year. It seemed a bit of a paradox that there was such a local lobby for a wonderful school that would be supported with education taxes from cottagers who would never use the facility. Of course this is a little clearer in hindsight.
The people who are buying properties here tend to have had their families. Retirees or folks within a decade of retiring don't need the school system but they sure can use an indoor pool in the winter. Perhaps other facilities as well.
The next generation go to school where their parents live not near the family cottage. There are residents with families too and probably a growing cohort as work increases at the point. Properties at Sauble are in good supply. Jaymor has approved plans for a subdivison that can go ahead. You are right the Board has too many classrooms and good money was wasted. We paid for a mistake of listening to promoters who were not good planners. Must we repeat the past?
Confusion
I tried to read many of the past posts and scoured the town's website for meeting minutes and presentations. The conclusion: everyone posting here is correct.
1) Yvonne is against the pipeline
"Comment: Councillor Harron indicated that Hepworth was not in favour of the sewer and water after the first public meeting process."
"Comment: Councillor Harron indicated that after the upgrading of the Sauble systems is completed she will be placing a motion on the table that all water users pay the same fees.
Question: Ed Feffer questioned whether Yvonne Harron’s motion is being ignored
Response: Ms. Harron responded that she had indicated she was going to place a motion on the floor after the updates were completed and therefore the motion has not been presented yet. "
2) The EA appears to be required to continue with any upgrades:
"This document was prepared by Henderson Paddon and Associates. The intent of Addendum #2 was to refresh the 2001 EA completed by RV Anderson (MOE requirement to refresh EA every 5 years) and to finalize site selections for sewage treatment facility.
This document is available on the Town of South Bruce Peninsula website www.southbrucepeninsula.com
Our most recent estimate for the preferred water supply alternative is $31.67 million and the preferred wastewater system is $46.8 million
Approximately $7,000 per water connection and $11,000 per sewer connection."
3) In many ways the decisions may be development driven:
"Comment: Carl Noble referred to Treasurer Stocks comment of possibly sixty percent of users paying their portion of costs up front leaving a forty percent debenture which would be approximately twelve million. He referred to developers along with other persons wanting a safe environment."
4) The MOE did request the ditch samples:
"Recent Water Quality Data
At the request of the MOE, the Town of South Bruce Peninsula agreed to take samples of ditch water in Sauble Beach"
5) I have to assume that this addendum is just the update to keep the process going:
"Currently the Town has completed the Environmental Assessment and submitted the document to the MOE and the public for comment.
From this process we have received three Part Two bump up orders or appeals to the process and or document."
6)There's a lot of problems to be ironed out no matter what system is installed:
"Comment: Vince Artuso commented that in amalgamation is was agreed that the tax rate and user fees would be the same through the town and that Amabel and Albemarle subsidized a reduction in tax rates for Hepworth and Wiarton. Water however on the former Amabel system cost three times what it does in the former Wiarton.
Response: By Mayor Gilbert that the focus of today’s meeting with the new Council relates to their efforts to determine future direction to move ahead relating to servicing issues."
7)The EA appears to be needed to determine present conditions but there may be other fingers in the pie.
"Question: Councillor King enquired re the capacity for new growth.
Response: The current program is one for the existing development receiving water servicing but there may be some expansion based upon the outcome of the EA process."
I agree that $20,000 doesn't pay for much of anything. If all of the testing was complete and it was simply putting together a report, maybe, but it's unlikey. I hope the town gets a firm price, in writing, before they agree.
I don't like the nasty comments about Ana. She might be right, she might be wrong but she followed the wishes of her voters. I've known her to be an "honest" politician. We all make assumptions based on the facts before us. It's our final desicions and actions that count. If we didn't ask questions when we were misinformed we would never have the ability to be corrected. Maybe she's asking too many questions that people don't want asked?
Dan O.
Yvonne Plays Both Sides
She knows she can't say Hepworth wants it but look how she is quoted on the pipeline in the Sun Times during the Jan 30 meeting,
"Coun. Yvonne Harron, a long-time member of South Bruce Peninsula and the former Amabel council, said everybody agrees Sauble needs the services and "everybody is committed to doing it with funding".
Sauble is not her ward you see and in her mind only everbody agrees.
Dan you have fallen into the trap of lies perpetuated by our Town. The numbers given as a most recent estimate on a page titled updated Jan 2007 are actually 2004 numbers. That is, 31.67 and 48.6 million are from 2004. They were broken down to cost per property but they are meaningless. In 2007 numbers the total could be $100 million. Who knows? Certainly not the people.
The other lie is that the MOE requested the ditchwater samples for this addendum. They did no such thing. The samples just happened to be available from an unrelated project. Presto- instant water samples. Read the addendum page 18-19 and see for yourself what happened and that the public actually asked for proper samples.
Henderson Padden should have stayed in the ditch that is where their standards are. The ditch water samples indicate nothing about the groundwater. Why do you think there was such a campaign after Walkerton to make sure all drilled wells were sealed from surface water?