South Bruce Peninsular - A Quarry on the Sauble River? - Comments

not a fire alarm

mxyzptlk — Sun, 27 Jan 2008 07:43:14 -0500

hi wayne, it was not a fire alarm, but the same backup signal device that is used on construction equipment. to my knowledge this action was not planned or endorsed by the SBPCCC. the SBPCCC only accounted for about 20% of the people in attendance at the park head meeting so we are not the only 'concerned citizens'. for your information, the SBPCCC is neither radical nor an anti-quarry group. we are opposed to the Everest proposal, not quarries in general. rather than look up the criminal code why dont you read the quarry proposal so you can make informed comments?
kltpzyxm

I'm a little behind

wayne tanner — Sat, 26 Jan 2008 20:00:02 -0500

I was at the father in laws and glanced at an issue of the Echo and read about the meeting in Park Head

One question
Did a " concerned citizen" a person belonging to a group whose agenda is to protect the interests and safety of the whole community by stopping a quarry development.
SET OFF A FIRE ALARM IN A CROWDED, (standing room only) ROOM???????.
If the answer is yes, because I can't believe someone of any sense at all, not suffering from a debillitating mental illness or not suffering from the effects of a traumatic brain injury, would think that this is an acceptable, safe and responcible way of getting a point across.
(sorry I remember a grade one pulled a station once thinking he could get a day off school, he thought he had a good point too).
Why weren't the police called, or because he was just making what seemed to be a popular point that many in the room agreed with and thought "way to go"....
If the quarry goes through, whats next sabatouging the brake lines on the trucks, because I can't see the difference in potential outcomes of yelling fire in a crowded room and a truck going out of control.
Goodness people, you have valids points in your arguments, stay with those, and for the Concerned citizens sake keep that radical fringe under control and use your heads.
When I take the time to figure out how to do it I will post the criminal code sections I think should be thrown at this idio..... sorry, distinquished looking gentlemen
I have never been in the Park head hall but to have a hundred people+chairs+panic banging around is a hell of of a way, when you could verbally go Beep Beep Beep to get a point across..

thinkers vs doers

mxyzptlk — Wed, 23 Jan 2008 07:37:32 -0500

wayne, i don't recall ever criticizing your spelling. i have never said that quarry jobs were not desirable. there are lots of quarry jobs available. ledgerock just advertised a few days ago for, i believe, 8 more employees. i am not opposed to quarries. i am opposed to the one proposed by Everest primarily due to its location. i lost my job too about 20 years ago and have been self employed since. there is lots of work to be done just not enough people with the get up and go to get it done.
kltpzyxm

hopefully my last word

wayne tanner — Wed, 23 Jan 2008 01:19:55 -0500

MXP..... Not all of us have university degrees which entitles or enables us for some higher means of financial security, or the self proclaimed arrogance a few letters behind the name seems to entitle some too
-As much to some peoples chagrin, some people in this world are not destined to such acedemic granduer that they can do a task which requires nothing but use intellect
-Some people are destined , and they should not be ashamed because I was there and technically still am, to work in a physicall enviroment or to do the moving not the thinking. For example, such places like quarries.
-The movement from the doers- to the thinkers- and now back to the doers re: pay grids seems to be a bone of contention for some people.
When , not so long ago, it was the skilled trades ( bricklayers plumbers, welders) that made the money. Then the "thinkers/university grads and consultates" started making the big dollar.
So those who thought about how to do stuff were making the coin, and those who were actually doing it were laid off, cuz all the money went to the ones who thought about it.
As I was 1 question wrong on a exam from working for the NOAA, fullfilling my dream of doing severe weather prediction research quickly came to an end. I was so close to being a thinker as opposd to a doer I could almost taste it. In fact one guy who in certain areas I helped get through school is making $150.000 US doing CCCOOOOOLLL on scene tornadic research every spring and then data anaylsis the rest of the year. But I got that one damn question wrong and now I am providing a clean working and viewing enviroment and fixin things, like a good janitor should
So don't belittle the fact because I can"t spell Carburatuer doesn't mean I can't biuld one, as the old high school benchmark goes.
There are people out there that may like or need to work in a quarry as it provides income to sustain a (meager to your standards) quality of life for their family. And those jobs are dwindlling.
Tired now so I will read this tommorrow and go "damn" and change a few things

Digging Up Farmland?

Dodge — Tue, 15 Jan 2008 14:44:50 -0500

How do we come to think farmland or rural land is valuable? With the current high and rising prices of corn, wheat and anything related to alternate fuels there is pressure on some marginal lands that will raise the issue of permanent soil depletion. Traditional cow calf operations do not seem viable now if you do not inherit the land and the herd or have other source income. Fertilizer and machinery prices are also rising and all this begs the question, "What value is farmland in terms of what it can produce?" The answer is different if you include quarrying activity on the farm. Stone is worth something.

Wayne's essay on the changing demographic in rural areas is well stated (in his unique style a good read) and illustrates that the value of rural property has been realized by the commuter and the retiree for a residence and not for what it will produce. They pay good money for farms and marginal land and hope it stays that way and they can live with traditional farmers who are still active.

The requirement for a zoning change is key to this permit. There has to be a compelling reason to make the change and I have not seen it yet. More to come I suppose.

giving away the farm

mxyzptlk — Tue, 15 Jan 2008 07:13:04 -0500

wayne, i see that you have difficulty answering a question. your love of the commercial industrial machine is obvious. did you lose your job? there are lots of quarry jobs just north of wiarton producing the same decorative stone. the proponents stated at the meeting "we don't have to show need". i am afraid you have missed the point wayne. i get the feeling you know very little about the proposal and doubt if you have even read it. if so, you are arguing based on emotion and not on knowledege of the proposal or facts. maybe its time you cleaned the windshield on you truck...this is farm land (it is a tree farm remember) being dug up and a big hole left forever. i get the feeling that you would like a toyota plant at the beach; there are jobs at walmart i suppose you shop there too. please let me know if you ever run for municipal politics so i can be sure to vote against you.
mkltpzyx

and also

wayne tanner — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 21:13:37 -0500

And Yes I really don't like the fact they "Jazzed Up" the Hinterlands who's who theme song either.....

the forest for the trees

wayne tanner — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 21:00:23 -0500

Analogies aside I think, based on comments I have heard, got the point across that I was trying to make...
Anytime someone wants to develop or do something in rural ontario that has something to do with what we USE to do in rural ontario, it meets with a brick wall of resistance.
Whether it is a farm operation/ a quarry or a guy logging some trees, the hoops that a land entrepeneur must jump through make it a impractical venture. But if someone who has the nice 3 bedroom ranch bungalow biult in the 90's, cut out of a virgin woodlot and wants to dig a 100' x 100' by 29' deep fish pond with a nice bridge on his 100 acre lot he got for a song every one goes oooooo aaaahhh and that increases his property value of his and his neighbours place with no enviromental impact study done... Ok that is just jealousy cuz I would like a fish pond on my place,
Small industries like a quarry, a farm was once the foundations of our economy. The die has been cast that now this land is earmarked for nothing else but to be the quiet retreats of the retired, and they will firmly defend this, through the tried and proven processes set out.
Lessons were learned by those people who biult near an airport and then complained about the noise, so move to the country where it is quiet and god forbid someone make a move to change that
This will be a watched by others who are thinking of setting up small industry. Guess what, Toyota will not be biulding a plant here soon folks so we gotta take baby steps,
Everest would not bother to take the time to go through this process if there was not a market or need for this product. The consumer demand ( profit) is there or why go through this headache.
I just put down a 1000 sq feet of limestone floor, and I cut down no hardwood trees, no solvents, glues, imitation wood created by chemicals processes for this guy. No carpet laced with petroleum based biocarbon carcinegens all tested on cute bunny rabbits and reeses monkies for this guy. Good old natural stone, and both my floor and the process used to extract it left a lot lower carbon signature than any other type of floor. But it was drawn from a designated quarry, not some tree farm where no one probably thought to designate for this type of use when the questions went out.
So lets surround the areas around the pretty floodplains and rivers with houses instead, and there leaky ole septic systems cuz we won't get sewers ( sorry Bud I threw that in) and there well fertilized " Scarborough" lawns (sorry Gary I stole that one from you) and keep the industrial elite's capital where it belongs in Mexico China and other food and material producing parts of the world
So to say I should rethink or question my ideas cuz I don't understand the issues involved is correct. No offense but I'll just continue to look at life as if I were again looking through the dusty back window of a pickup truck at the sign fading into the distance saying "Farm for Sale"

resources

mxyzptlk — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 07:33:43 -0500

Hi Wayne, food is a renewable resource, stone is not. the property is already in use as a tree farm. no one is being denied land on which to have a quarry, there are areas already designated for that, so again your analogy, with word substitution does not make sense. The aggregate industry has not sufferd the same fate as agriculture.

Your analogies seem to be premised on consumption; I suggest you take the time to watch and understand the video The Story of Stuff posted earlier by GaryM.

Why is a below ground water decorative stone quarry adjacent to the sauble river in an rural/agricultural zone a good idea?
kltpzyxm

"watchdog groups"

wayne tanner — Sun, 13 Jan 2008 13:06:29 -0500

I guess it goes back to that (innapropriate locker room humour) who are you gonna please with that, and the answer being "me"
I am here for my amusement:)
To understand where I come from and my thoughts on land use I have to start with a history lesson
50's-60's early 70's
small rural ontario ( where we are ) is busy and vibrant
as you drive down the road farm after farm is using the land and drawing some profit from it. The roads are full of tractors and combines going up and down the road. Car loads of families going into town to shop, play hockey, buses are taking children to FULL newly biult schools.
Restaurants are full of people on lunch who work at farm dealerships/ machine shops/hardware stores/ car dealerships. grocery stores are busy needing lots of help. The store fronts are fully open and each catering to a need or service and each one busy.
trucks from the big city are rolling in to restock the busy little towns they service keeping things busy in the big city trying to keep up to the busy little towns.
The farms and the economy thats supports them are busy
The the late 70's and 80's and into today
20% interest and the cost goes up and profits go down.
No money to fix anything so the machine shops close down
No money for that tractor upgrade so the impliment dealer close down
still need groceries but the account recievables get so high cuz everything is on credit the level of service and selection goes down.
no new car this year so the car dealership lays off or closes down
No one is coming in for lunch break because there is no local employment so the restaurant closes down
farm foreclose and people move away, school enrollment drops, schools close and not enough kids to support minor sports, arenas sit empty most of the time.
Those trucks from the city stop rolling in to resupply and the cities suffer.
In a word Recession
So we have all this land not being used so local government says yes people can sever lots biuld homes on it and those still working people move into farm homes while the land sits idle. cheap houses and acreage to boot for atv's,
retired people move to the area for relatively cheap housing. So the entire demographic in rural ontario has changed.
Now theres seems to be in some aspects of agriculture some areas where there could be a profit. farmer or a corporation wants to biuld a pig barn. The business of farming has changed and for those still in the business of feeding us see this type of factory farming as modern and effecient and profitable. All of a sudden there is a "concerned citizens" group of nieghbours who don't farm saying NIMBY
They drag out a process set up to keep and preserve the quality of life they have come to enjoy when they filled the real estate void left by a dying agriindustry.
Traffic/smells/enviromental impact all argued to the point as the land will sit idle. Economic impact is irrelavant as the attmpt to re establish the agri bussiness in rural ontario is outwieghed by the interests of a concerned citizens group and the agri industry is denied the use of what was agricultural land.. for producing food
So the farmers says I can make some money from my land by setting up a wind turbine, and we saw how the new demographic in rural ontario dealt with that...
So the land sits idle, in 30 years rural ontario is a shell of what it was, schools close, 3 towns have to merge to make a hockey team, hardware stores sell suntan lotion and beach chairs...farmers are told to retrain and get computer skills and industry has moved to china.
So this is my understanding of how land use politics works as I was involved. If I were to try and make a point with my last post I guess, based on experience, once a concerned citizens group gets a taste of success where do they stop. You can exchange the word stone with food anywhere here if it makes it more relavant..

Watching

mxyzptlk — Sun, 13 Jan 2008 07:58:32 -0500

Hi Wayne, was this your attempt at humour? If so, don't give up your day job. If it was a serious attempt at an analogy, then I think you have missed the point.

To clarify for you, imagine that the elected officials of Tannerville, after much consultation with the residents, have designated two areas of town, one for Land Use A (the quiet residential senior retirement area) and one for Land Use B (new families with children, dogs, toys, noise, etc). Now everything is fine in Tannerville until one day Mr E decides he wants to use his property in area A for area B activities (because experts have told him his children will be more hansome/beautiful than the kids from area B) even though there are lots of similar places in area B for Mr E's activities. There is an application process for Mr E to attempt to do this, but the neighbours in Area A protest because it does not comply with the town plan.

Preventing a quarry at the proposed location will not affect the local economy. I suggest, if you want to make a meaningful comment, that you become more familiar with the proposal.
kltpzyxm

Hey Gary and May

wayne tanner — Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:36:46 -0500

This comment has been moved here.

I am watching how this is done

wayne tanner — Sat, 12 Jan 2008 11:08:50 -0500

I am interested in the process regarding trying to stop the quarry as I have come to the conclusion somthing must be done in my own neighbourhood as I have concerns....
-The continued growth of the size of families and the influx of young couples who may have families in this neighbourhood-
Here is my argument.
A senior couple or household is tolerable as they make little noise, keep to themselves and are done expanding.

-Families with children make noise, the giggling and shouting is intolerable in my mind as the noise travels into my living space
-unsightly with all the toys laying around
-parents moving kids to different events or activities clogg our roads and increase traffic volume and noise and pollution
-a ball coming into my space is an intrusive and intolerable invasion of my space
These factors affect my property values and decrease the pleasure of life I expect from use of my property.

Seniors are quiet and keep to themselves, they don't go out as much and their needs are basic so we can eliminate the need for as much travel and even cut down on the traffic and stores downtown as they do need much and therefore the big trucks coming into town to resupply the stores won't be roaring through as often.
As there won't be as much demand for local goods this will work well as we won't need as many people nto work in the stores and this will help eliminate the need for young families to come to area and work. Therefore assisting with the above mentioned problem creating by expanding family units in our area.
So I am watching this as I growing frustrated with the amount of family units in my area trying to expand and grow at the cost of my enjoyment of life.
Gawds speed concerned citizens, this kind of audacious expansion for nothing other than selfish personal growth has to be nipped in the bud at all costs

Sponaneous Negativity

garym — Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:50:42 -0500

It is always hard to argue with stacks of paper and PhDs, so there is little else for people to do when it is patently clear that, as Alan Watts so elegantly deduces, wet-ware is undeniably the superior computational device although it cannot prove the backtrace of its logic. Which, btw, neither can the PhDs if you press them (I did, it was my job back in early AI days). So they are stuck, there is an inkling in their (superior computing device) brains that just says 'NO' and yet what good is fleshware against the onrush of Massive Machines backed by the All-Mighty Dollar.

It's all about jobs, profits, shareholder returns, and that beautiful stone, that stone we covet, that stone we simply must have to line our bathroom and really deeply impress all the shallow people we know. That is what it is all about.

"What a piece of work is a man" ... indeed

Here's a thought experiment for Everest and Co that I know neither they nor Dodge will answer: Imagine you discovered TEN BILLION DOLLARS of absolutely precious crystals had formed just below the surface of your wife's skull ... should you mine it? That's a lot of money, and honey, just think what we could buy, who we could hire, oh really dear, it is just a simple operation, a few cuts here we can tape over, even buy you a nice nylon wig to cover the unfortunate unsightly scar!

So far as I can see, humans are insatiable in their appetite to rip the pretties from Nature, so there is no stopping them, they will crush all opposition to get at the pretty pretty stone, so they are going to I-Me-Mine the earth anyway, the only question left to ask is Are we a bio-reserve, or are we just more raw material to be ripped up at largely externalized cost and expeditiously exported for internalized profit?

garym: ict evangelist - musician - whatever

More on the Quarry Quandry

garym — Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:22:41 -0500

In today's Sun-Time, Jim Algie offers some sound-bites snipped from both sides of the Sauble River Quarry fence ...

Everest, a retired Owen Sound dentist, said stone on the property has unique characteristics which make it ideal for use in flooring.

“There’s no stone quite like it,” he said in a telephone interview from Florida, where he is on vacation. “One of the unique characteristics of it . . . we’ll be able to cut it down to less than an eighth of an inch in thickness.”

Colour variations from taupe to black could lead to other applications.

Rogers worries about truck traffic — up to 38 trips daily — on what is a main route to busy tourist areas at Sauble Beach.

Burns worries about disruptions to fish habitat, water quality in his well and noise. He lives closer than anyone to the proposed quarry site.

“My house is 350 metres from the licensed area,” Burns said in an interview Wednesday. “Our well is also at the highest risk of anybody. They’re going down 50 feet into the rock and my well’s only 50 feet deep.

“The noise of the machinery, that diamond belt saw and caterpillar loader and the generator that runs that saw — they did a study." Burns said the study shows that noise at his home will slightly exceed environment ministry limits.

“That is what I’ll be hearing all the time. I won’t hear the birds or anything,” he said. “And once this is approved, how could they turn down everybody else? There’ll be quarries all along the highway.”
[ Sun Times: Third swipe at fighting quarry ]

Now, I don't know squat about the price of rock, but what I do know is that I don't disagree with all of Annie Leonard's new Story of Stuff video and it just seems to me to be an apropos side-story to consider as we consider the 'value' of this special stone, and then to also maybe, and maybe blasphemously so, to ponder and consider, just perchance and askance, why it was that we wanted to fly that 'Blue Flag' over our dunes.

Just a thought.

garym: ict evangelist - musician - whatever

A Quarry on the Sauble River?

mxyzptlk — Tue, 01 Jan 2008 15:31:43 -0500

Everest Tree Farms Inc recently made their third application for a licence to operate a Category 2 "Below Groundwater" quarry on Part Lot 12 Concession 10 Amabel Twsp in the Town of South Bruce Peninsula. The location of the proposed quarry is near the junction of the Sauble River and Spring Creek, a well know fish sanctuary and habitat. In order to get the licence they must also get amendments to the Official Plan and Zoning Bylaws. The property is currently zoned Agricultural and used for the tree farm. They are proposing to dig a 16 meter deep hole (think 4 or 5 story building) into the bedrock adjacent to the Sauble River to extract 'decorative' stone that is available elsewhere in the municipality in areas already designated for Industrial Extraction.