South Bruce Peninsular - June 29: Day of Protests - Comments

And to make this a bit lighter in tone..

bub — Thu, 12 Jul 2007 22:02:00 -0400

I know EXACTLY why they pulled you over wiith that linux 8 license plate.Did the constable look something like this?:

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"How does one "Seem to think"? Either you did or you didn't! "
-ZenGary

Dont leave Sabrinus

bub — Thu, 12 Jul 2007 20:07:00 -0400

You were gone for a long time ago, and I miss your informative posts on plants and such.In an open forum such as this, as long as hard intentional personal derogatory attacks aren't made, its pretty tough to do anything about it.Years ago, before WWW, when Usenet was big, and even before that before gopher and cello, there were newsreaders that you could block a poster.
It aways came down to a quote.*Don't feed the trolls*.What it meant is that some people(some intentionally some not) would go posting things that would or could cause an argument.( and believe me, in the late 80's early 90's no-one ended an argument with a simple one sentence more than Gary lol)The more you reply, the more they would.Sometimes silence is golden, after all we all read words and can interpret them, and we can all judge sources.
Besides, I bet you were pulled over in the 70's by police like I was with our long waist length curly hair ;) heh

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"How does one "Seem to think"? Either you did or you didn't! "
-ZenGary

I give up, walteib!

sabrinus — Thu, 12 Jul 2007 18:56:03 -0400

OK, I give up, walteib!

Let us go over your posting sentence by sentence.

Sabrinus, I don't recall this very sad and unfortunate incident in November 2001,but I find your allegations about the refusal by Wiarton OPP officers for help, flashlights etc.,very startling.

These are not MY ALLEGATIONS. These facts are on the public record for Christ's sake!

I wonder why you would bring this sad occurance to life again after so many years have passed.

Let me think...why would I bring this up? Oh yeah, KeeMay posted her experience with the OPP acting in a manner that smacked of racism. Duh. And we could ALL learn from the past. Except you perhaps.

Is it possible that you feel a lot of animosity towards the OPP?

Anything is possible, but NO, I do not feel a LOT of animosity towards the OPP. Having said that, I am not one for sugar-coating reality. Is it possible that you have a lot of animosity against sabrinus? Sure seems like it!

No matter how you feel, I don't think it's fair to paint everybody in the OPP with a racist brush.

Of course it would be unfair to paint everybody in the OPP with the same brush. As it would be unfair to paint all Roman Catholic priests as pedophiles. Tell me where I made any direct reference or allusion to that mindset in my post? How dare you suggest that I paint all OPP as racist. TRY READING THE POSTING TITLE - "Some Wiarton OPP staff are racist for sure". Get it? Apparently not!

This is becoming very tedious. You seem to have a problem with every post I make. Garym, is there a way I can block posts from certain individuals? What the hell is the point of posting information when people like walteib seem to make nonsensical replies to a serious post, and attack my personal ethics at the same time? I am this close to not visiting this site any more. I suppose that would require you to mis-read and mis-interpret some other poor sucker's posts ad infinitum/ad nauseam.

humans are racist by natur... but that would be a bigoted remark

wayne tanner — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 22:20:22 -0400

Take 100 nurses
100 retired people
100 school teachers
100 firefighters
100 computer techs
100 natives
100 post pubesent school children
100 tall people
100 short people like me ( who are the most bullied and picked on group out there)
and so on and so on
, your will probably find an equal amount who are truly bigots in the white supremasist sense of the word
a % who are indifferent
a % who go way out of there way not do anything which could be percieved biggoted
a % secretly have had 3 0r more a biggotted remarks cross there mind in the last year
a % who own an SUV ... ok thats another poll
I really hate the R word, because it only covers a small portion of what a human being views as being different than himself and this difference facters in in his/ her everyday thinking.
As for the OPP, Since they are in the fish bowl all the time I imagine when an incident pops up they are assumed to have a higher percentage of bigots in thier ranks than the average.
If a funeral director had daily "confrontations" with all classes, groups, genders and intellects, and one of these moments became newworthy, the funeral directors association would be bombarded with complaints of a industry of bigots.
I chose funeral directors because they are all scary old men who never smile, whose suits smell like moth balls and must thave death fetish issues to get into that occupation.... OOOps did I let that slip out...( *this remark was meant as a joke and a example of a biggotted remark and has no bearing on my true feelings about funeral directors
Now to say the OPP should be above this, would being saying the officers of the OPP should be above being human.
The training of our soldiers is based on an us and them atitude when put into conflict.
In the Movie Band of Brothers a telling moment was when the soilders walked past a group of German prisoners, and taunting them and jeering " the enemy", until one spoke back and told him he was from his very own home town in the US and entered the war on the German side. All of a sudden the US soldier looked past the uniform as this guy was really one of them, and now a good guy, just on the unpopular side of the fight.
Look past the uniform, please
Just a note, when we have a call to one of the singles campgrounds on a long weekend my own personal first reaction is, are the OPP going to be there. Because all young adults are drunken beer bottle throwing acid taking potential cause of bodily arm to me, idiots.
OK this may not be true of all, but I have had enough beer bottle tossin drunken slobbery, causes of concerns for my safety situations going on around me on one of those calls, I may be justified in at least leaning towards that notion at 3 in the morning...
I get there and a sweet well mannered young individual had a little too high of a sugar count and the group shakes our hands and thanks us for our time.
But the next time, I still want the OPP there anyway

Why now?

skyhawk — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 20:54:38 -0400

Sabrinus, I don't recall this very sad and unfortunate incident in November 2001,but I find your allegations about the refusal by Wiarton OPP officers for help, flashlights etc.,very startling.
I wonder why you would bring this sad occurance to life again after so many years have passed. Is it possible that you feel a lot of animosity towards the OPP?
No matter how you feel, I don't think it's fair to paint everybody in the OPP with a racist brush.

Some Wiarton OPP staff are racist for sure

sabrinus — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 18:36:02 -0400

Does anyone here remember the shameful response by Wiarton OPP to the disappearance of Lucy Pedoniquott in November 2001? Ironically, it was November 11, Remembrance Day. A day to reflect. A day of peace. A day to commemorate fallen soldiers. A number of fallen soldiers from the Wiarton area were from Cape Croker.

So what happened?

A disoriented Ms. Pedoniquott wandered out of Wiarton hospital that evening dressed in bedclothes and paper slippers. The OPP searched ONLY the hospital grounds, then went back to their cozy office. When family members started their own search, and went to the Wiarton detachment for some assistance, they were refused outright. When asked to borrow some flashlights, they were refused.

The next day, Lucy was found dead from exposure in the swampy area across from the hospital.

If a white women were reported missing from the hospital, what do YOU think would have happened differently?

TWO YEARS later, the OPP formally apologized to the Pedoniquotte family.

Give me a break.

I was so ashamed I felt obligated to write a letter to David McLaren, expressing my sympathy and outrage over this incident.

There are many other incidents that reflect poorly on the OPP.

For example, also in 2001, 60 OPP officers were under investigation for circulation of racist emails, including autopsy photos of an Indian woman with the accompanying caption: Steak knives are good for more than just steak.

How about Dudley George and Ipperwash?

The list is growing still.

There is a real redneck mentality in the OPP ranks. And it ain't going away.

Sad.

OPP

Dan O. — Tue, 10 Jul 2007 17:56:12 -0400

Gary; I think most OPP officers are good. It's just that the scum rises to the top where it blocks the view of the remainder.

It was propably the circumstances that you describe that ended up getting KeeMay off with a warning. I'm just guessing that he actually was still using his authority by letting her stew when he made her wait in the vehicle with two children. That's the part that I find wrong. He should have confirmed identity and made a call on his decision in a reasonable time frame.

As for freedoms, any changes that we've had lately seem to put us closer to life in the Orwell's 1984. I never realized that Owen Sound was crime central. I'll have to take the back roads when I'm driving up :)

Dan O.

And getting more relative all the time

garym — Tue, 10 Jul 2007 10:41:00 -0400

Owen Sound has 24-hr video surveillance in the streets, maybe that happened while you were away. Ironically, the main opponent of that installation was the Owen Sound chief of police. As for flexing his authority, isn't it curious how far less he felt a need for intimidation after he'd assured himself this was a real ratepayer. Who do you suppose he thought she was the first time? One all alone small woman, two small children, dark lonely street ... hardly a scenario to warrant even a brash gimme a break ma'am, don't ya think?

I did a google search on the keywords "OPP Officer" yesterday, and let me tell you, the results were quite an eye-opener. Finding the direct result a bit unsettling, I did a second search using the News Only option, and sadly, the results were not a whole lot better. One woman beaten and detained without charge for reporting her mailbox vandalized, a mohawk national flag defaced ... I don't care if the woman spat in the officer's face, being beaten sufficient to soil herself and then left in a cell and denied a phonecall, while another officer looked on and did nothing, that maybe ain't Saudi-style, but it's pretty darn scary if you ask me.

Oh wait, way down there, right at the bottom of the listings, an OPP officer is thanked for helping a woman out of a burning store in Staynor, so there are a few, good officers do exist. They're just maybe invisible.

Probably not worth mentioning, but it is a common perplexion in Smart-People-Make-Dumb-Alliances circles that Albert Einstein continued to support Stalin even long after it was completely clear to the rest of the world that the man was a madman. "It was necessary to give up their freedoms for future gains!" cried Albert, "I only listen to the reliable commentators!". Would he move there? Not in your life, said Albert.

and so it goes.

garym: ict evangelist - musician - whatever

you think thats bad

wayne tanner — Mon, 09 Jul 2007 22:48:54 -0400

My wife has gotten this machine, from where I do not know, that can detect poker chips and money which has been designated to the purchase of beverages not matter how well it is hid on your person.
The other night I walk out the door and all the car/van doors locked, a cage came down, and the driveway turned into a moat full of wasps. This sort of survellience technology should of stayed behind the iron curtain where it belonged. If the Russains are thinking about selling this then soon they will be able to buy the arctic as it will be in every household.....
The only way to deactivate the system is when it detects a grocery list or a similiar item
Beware guys, a conspiracy is begginning
wt

It's relative

Dan O. — Mon, 09 Jul 2007 18:55:10 -0400

KeeMay; The officer sounds like he was trying to show his authority and you weren't playing the game. Even though you may have been giving an honest answer, the Hong Kong answer probably wasn't what he expected when he didn't like your plate and you didn't have a license.

Over the last two weeks I found out what it's like to live in the Middle East. Video cameras covering all the downtown streets. Plant guards armed with AK47's, bomb sniffing dogs, personal metal detectors, checking under vehicles with mirrors, ID passes and when they told you(not asked) to open bags you did exactly as told. This isn't for a nuclear facility just a wastewater treatment plant.

If you feel it's justified put in a complaint. We have a very secure existence. Canada is a great nation. It has it's warts but it's heaven compared to the way others have to live.

Dan O.

Exhibit A: The Guilty Plate

garym — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 11:47:00 -0400

For your consideration, I direct the blog to Exhibit A, the alleged 'illegible' license plate. Since everyone in SBP knows my license plate number anyway I'm not concerned with any privacy issue here ;) but just here now for the record, this is the object that prompted Kee-May's incident.

True, I am biased, but it looks quite legible to me, especially in the twilight when the reflective surfaces further enhance the plate. Even if I squint, the most distorted read I can glean would be LIHUX, plenty close enough for practical moving violation purposes, and this plate has passed all litmus tests by other road patrols, but now here is a whole other sticky issue: this plate is not 'dirty' as our rude plaintiff asserts, the plate is defective!

The companion front-plate is perfectly fine, crystal calgonite clean like the day it was purchased, and I'd swap the two of them gladly were it not for the corner sticker -- the protective coating on the bad plate has bubbled up, cracked and has worn away on the surface surrounding the lettering, exposing the white background beneath to discolour! The plate was badly made, the letter-stamping ruined the protective coating; it is clearly the fault of the manufacturer, which means it is MTO's fault.

Oh-Oh Canada! I can feel the prickly hairs standing up now -- anyone care to give me odds on the Motor Vehicles Branch accepting any responsibility and granting me a replacement? How about a cheap discount re-do? Yeah, I thought so too. "We stand on guard" don't necessarily mean they do ;)

But back to the issue at hand, regardless of the ugly discolouration of their bad craftsmanship, this condition has existed in the present form for at least 5 years, possibly more, without nary a single comment or alarm being thrown anywhere by any other constable or otherwise throughout all our travels across Southern Ontario. So .. is the plate truly illegible?

Or was it just an opportune excuse for a no-witnesses profiling harrassment in hopes of provoking something better?

UPDATE -- called the Licensing office, and no, there's no warrantee on their work; the trucks office said "once you bought them, they are your responsibility" and then he laughed. He directed me to the license office, who are technically not government but just have a contract to do this service, and the woman there said I would have to get new plates, for $90 -- she wouldn't formally endorse my Plan B, but she could sell me a replacement sticker for $7 so I could swap the front and back in hopes that the discoloured front would escape the petty officer's ire.

garym: ict evangelist - musician - whatever

police

mmockler — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 08:16:13 -0400

I am so sorry this happened to you - particularly in front of your children. You should file a complaint - first with the OPP office in Wiarton and then there is a provincial citizens' review board you can also write to. Call me and I will give you the address and phone number.

But DO NOT be afraid of the police. Yes, they are there to protect us and I have respect for them. But, as with any group, there are a few bad apples in the bunch and they should be weeded out.

If this ever happens to you again - stand up tall, pull back your shoulders, look the officer in the eye and DEMAND that he give you his badge number, his name and the name of his commanding officer - that is YOUR right.

When I first got my driver's licence, at 16, my mother used to let my drive her car - an orange Corvette. Needless to say, I was pulled over at the beach several times a day. One time, an officer severely questioned my passenger because she was from the States. I know that some of them can be jerks.

But I do believe most of them are dedicated and professional. But they DO NOT have the right to harass or intimidate.

Get your spine up girl!

Melissa Mockler-Wunderlich

File a Complaint

mxyzptlk — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 07:25:03 -0400

kee-may, if there is nothing wrong with your licence plates then you should go to the opp office in wiarton and file a complaint. it is illegal for the police to pull a vehicle over for no reason. if you were illegally stopped, then the police officer should be reprimanded. your incident was unfortunate, and you should not let the police intimidate you. after all, we pay their salaries and they are here supposedly to 'serve and protect'. not all police are 'bad cops' and i certainly do not envy them their job, but they need to play by the rules (even though the rules are in their favour). And for your kids, yes, they can put you in jail for speeding, and it would not surprise me if a police officer somewhere has gone into a home and shot children. if you are in trouble, they are only marginally safer than a random stranger, imo.
kltpzyxm

Cocky policeman

KeeMay — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 20:52:00 -0400

Yes, I did apologise. Not once, not twice. A few times before he started interrogating me. I was confused by the cocky policeman. Why did he ask me where I was from after I had told him a few times that I lived just around the corner? "What is your address ma'am" would have been a more appropriate question, don't you think? Could it be that he thought I was lying?

The boys won their games. But the encounter with the cocky policeman has done more than spoiling our evening. Kaelin was almost sobbing when we were finally told to go. Nolan has been, it the past couple of days, asking questions like, can a police put somebody away for speeding? can a police go into a home and shoot children.

As for me, every time I go out in the vehicle without Gary, even in broad daylight, I get really scared that I may be stopped by another cocky policeman. Really scared.

Am I angry? Yes, I am angry. I am angry at that policeman for making myself and my children living in worries. I am angry at myself for not being able to protect my children from the effects of the threat by the policeman. And I am sad that there is nothing I can do about it. Very sad.

A Blathering

vinylgirl — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 14:45:43 -0400

Listening to this, I can't help but flip back to Malcolm Gladwell's ideas on profiling, and his novel "Blink" and how, in the flicker of two seconds, we automatically, and subconsciously judge someone in an instant, and he does do a blurp on profiling on his website. As I recall, the blurp about "the fuzz" was most interesting. Kee May, that experience must have been horrible for you.

If you haven't read the book, it is an amazing and eye opening read.

We all know, there is racism and ignorance on both sides. No, it is not everyone, but it exists. It seems, that there will never be an end to it, (I am generalizing here) mainly because many of us, regardless of how "pure" we think our thoughts are, have been ingrained to look at "others" differently, or be it due to cultural differences, different moirés, different "whatever's". "ISM's" are everywhere, racism, sexism, cityfolkism, countryfolkism, religionism, it's everywhere.

I recall, in college, one of my best friends happened to be Native, his relatives were not happy with the fact we were friends, it even went so far as his family / friends, coming in to my father's place of business downtown, to tell him, that they didn't want us hanging around together anymore. This was because I was "white".

I can't really help the fact that my Great Great Chromosome Donors, travelled the high seas and ended up laying down roots in Berlin (old Kitchener). Just as the descendents from the pioneers can't really help the fact that their forefathers didn't honour treaties / lay out treaties fairly or clearly.

What the big issue is, is that in order to stop the marginalization of people that happen to be Native (or any people, I may add), is to be aware of what is going on, and not rely on the "Old School" patterns of thought and to challenge them.

(Please excuse these terms, as this crap was regurgitated to me by a local business man while I was at the hairdressers, ) "they get everything for free" (ya right buddy, but at what cost?), "their education is paid for, and they don't have to do anything" (which I know is a fallacy) . . ."they throw bricks at my trucks" (maybe a few bricks did fly, but did you consider why? might have you considered that not everyone is throwing bricks, maybe it's a few bad apples? "I knew a guy who went to law school and was getting 32,000 a year tax free" (this went on for 20 minutes, I could tell by the dye job timer). Let's just say, when I did speak up, I wasn't popular, and I won't be buying from this "popular" business person again, it was insulting not only to the group he was talking about, but insulting to my own intelligence, and the fact that there were kidlets around).

What is it? 800 or so land claims in Ontario, each taking approximately 16 or so years each to figure out? I know the government was going to "help" expedite the claims somehow in the future, but that is not the point. I admit, and will admit again that I am not as up on my stuff as I should be.

These lands, are not arbitrarily picked, it's not like they have picked Blyth, because of the Thresher's Reunion. It's not like the land that is in question is being picked out of a hat.

They have every right to protest peacefully, just like any union, or person with a beef.

June 29: Day of Protests

Dan O. — Wed, 20 Jun 2007 22:09:25 -0400

June 29 is the anticipated day of protest for First Nations across the country. Politicians and police forces have already reached cool down agreements to help prevent escalation. I know that off duty and auxillary police are being scheduled for indefinite finish time shifts that day. It appears that the forces will have to pay for this extra policing and speeding tickets are an easy way to bring in income. With the potential for blocked rail, roads, and interupted utilities this sounds like a good weekend to just sit back with the fridge filled with ice and beer.

The First Nations are trying to get across a point and drivers tensions will be high enough with the normal long weekend traffic. Here are some video links to what is being planned: