South Bruce Peninsular - So What's Happening? - Comments

below average

mxyzptlk — Mon, 02 Apr 2007 09:31:28 -0400

hi dan o, the things working in our favour are having only a 2 lane highways leading to our area and being a 2.5/3 hour drive from most major cities. i think the govt has frozen mpac changes until a better way is found to properly assess properties for taxation purposes (not sure). imo you should be taxed on the land, not the value of the home you decide to build on it. but, this really is a drift in the thread. Iraq and gas prices are ample fodder for a couple more blogs. imo north americans should be paying 2 (canada) to 4 (usa) times what they are currently paying for gasoline. hopefully, we would drive less and use more fuel efficient cars. i spent a month in the uk a few years ago and every time i filled the car it was over $100.
kltpzyxm

We're below average

Dan O. — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 21:06:10 -0400

Even with the present escalation in home prices SBP remains very affordable when compared to the rest of Ontario:

http://www.rbc.com/economics/market/pdf/house.pdf

The $250,000 figure is near the value of the average Ontario townhouse ($233,000). That's not even a Toronto townhouse ($301,000).

mxyzptlk; I don't even think it's greed. The population of Ontario has grown. People make more money than 10 years ago. Both spouses generally work, which further increases family income. The total available money allows people to pay more for real estate and prices rise. If people can't afford to pay their mortgages prices will fall as is happening in the U.S.

At least real estate has some purpose other than investment. Not like the tulip scandal:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2103985/

Lastly; the worst case of creating your own profits is what Iran is doing. They pump about 2.2 mil. barrels of oil each day. Every time they cut back on inspectors, give a bad press statement or take hostages they keep driving the price of oil up. This last time was over $2 per barrel or $5 mil a day to them.

I guess the real price of oil is what people will pay :)

Dan O.

MPAC assessment

mxyzptlk — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 14:19:14 -0400

dan o, the problem is that MPAC arbitrarily changes assessment for no real reason. if the house next door is worth 150k and some upper income family pays 250k for it, that should not impact my taxes, imo. if i improve my property, then of course a higher assessment is possibly valid. but because someone agrees to pay more than something is really worth (this is subjective, the toronto family may percieve the property to be worth 250k to them, but i percieve its value at 150k; iow i wouldn't give you more than 150k for the property) that should not impact _my_ assessment. besides which even if my property assessment was in the millions, i would not sell my home ... i intend to spend the rest of my life here and my children will keep the family home here at sauble for many years after my wife and i have passed on. not everyone is motivated by money and greed (not directed at you).
kltpzyxm

kltpzyxm; I'm glad we agree.

Dan O. — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 12:16:06 -0400

kltpzyxm; I'm glad we agree. I didn't go into the different classes of property taxation to keep the example simple. That's the same reason that I didn't mention County or Education taxes.

The taxes each resident pays (as you concluded) are equal to the rate at which their property is assessed multiplied by the value ($) assessment. Neither assessment or tax rate determine taxes alone.

The problem or reality with MPAC assessments is that "if" the family from Toronto raised the price of your property you'd expect to receive a similar price if you sold. You don't receive any more "services" for your taxes but you do own a greater proportion of the town's assesssment.

It goes back to that old adage: "It's better to own the cheapest house in a rich district than the most expensive house in a poor district".

Dan O.

wierd math

mxyzptlk — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 08:41:29 -0400

dan o, i think what you are saying is that each property owner pays the same _rate_. they certainly do not pay the same _amount_ of $. fyi there are many different tax classes for property: residential, industrial, vacant, and many more. mill rate is per $1000 of assessment. the town agrees on a budget and then based on the municipality's total assessment, sets rates for each of the tax classes. an example, your assessment(100) times mill rate(10%) = taxes $10. my assessment(100) times mill rate (10%) = taxes $10. now someone buys a property near me for lets say 10 times what i paid for my property. i get a new assesment because mpac sees that properties near where i am located and similar to mine are selling for 10 times what the did in the past. assume my assessment increases to 250 and mill rates don't change. now i pay $25 in taxes and you still pay $10 even though we both own similar properties. i don't get anything more for my tax dollars. we both pay the same rate but now i am paying 2.5 times as much tax dollars as you just because a double income family from toronto (eg) decides it would be nice to have a 250,000 cottage up here to use a few weeks of the year. don't get me wrong, i don't begrudge them having a cottage; what bothers me is the unfair system of taxation. here is another scenario. the municipality costs double (for ease if example) now they must raise twice as mouch money which might mean a higher tax rate, but, if the assessment base also doubled (growth/development in the area that some people would like) then the mill rate would stay the same. so as costs go up, as they usually do, you either end up with higher tax rates or a larger population. for me personally i would prefer to pay higher taxes (to offset increased costs) and keep our community the small rural conclave that a lot of us enjoy. in conclusion, paying the same tax rate is not the same as paying the same amount of tax dollars.
kltpzyxm

mxyzptlk: my weird math

Dan O. — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 19:00:49 -0400

I believe (and I could be wrong) that the municipality determines the total amount of taxes that they must collect. They then add up the total assessment of tax paying properties in the municipality. They divide the total taxes by the total assessment and the result is the "Mill Rate" (I'm sure Garym has a story about that).

If all properties increase in value by 10% and the town doesn't increase the amount of taxes that it needs to collect (not too likely) each property owner will pay the same taxes.

If properties in Suable are deemed to have increased in assessment due to installed water and sewers or just increased demand and the properties in lowly Oliphant don't increase in value; the Sauble properties will pay more taxes (Assessment X Mill Rate). Just as you said.

PS; I don't agree with the $80 million vs $6 million math. I just tried to show how some politicians would make good magicians.

Dan O.

assessment math

mxyzptlk — Sat, 31 Mar 2007 08:04:50 -0400

if your assessment is 100 and the tax rate is 10% you pay $10.00 if your assessment increases to 200 and the tax rate stays the same, then you pay $20.00. ergo when your assessment goes up and the tax rates stay the same, you pay more tax. are you the same guys that think 80 million is less that 6 million? where did you learn arithmetic?
kltpzyxm

I beg to differ Dodge

Dan O. — Fri, 30 Mar 2007 21:44:44 -0400

Dodge; you are absolutely correct about increased assessments not affecting taxes (except for general increases) if all properties in a municipality increase in value equally. Unfortunately Sauble Beach is prime real estate. Even primer if services were installed and infilling took place. If Sauble properties increase in value while other town property values remain static, Sauble residents will carry more of the load.

Dan O.

Who Let The Dogs Out !

Dodge — Fri, 30 Mar 2007 20:46:55 -0400

Lots of posts today, each one a good comment to which I will add mine to the general din.

Rising assessments do not increase your tax bill. For a given area, ie Sauble Beach, if the Town has a 0% tax increase year over year your bill remains the same even if assessments have gone up. (Edit: Of course Dan is correct in the following post, Wiarton's assessment has dropped and Sauble's has gone up) Zero% increase is possible if some of the fat is trimmed. The airport board is asking for $23,000 to put yellow paint on the runway. There is no payback for this. Put a lot of small demands together and pretty soon you need a tax increase. Every year police services cost more guess what that means?

I remember Dick Thomas lobbying everybody hard for the new Sauble school in 1993. In 1994 he told me he would have water service at his store on Lakeshore the next year. The problem was he just wasn't much good at predicting the future. Turns out some of the real estate churn is pre retirees moving in and selling a decade or two later when they need more care. Not great for school enrollment.
Schools are growing enrollment and shrinking somewhere else. Like most of the working world you kind of have to go where the jobs are. Even in 905 land schools are closing and opening. Are enrollments up in Port and Kincardin? Having your job in jeopardy is no joke lots have felt the pain of it.

Growth in seasonal towns ends up costing the existing residents more than they get back from the new subdivisions.
This has been established in planning research. Part of the problem is the lack of a lot levy. Police , fire protection new equipment, increased traffic, administration, social services and much more all need new money and the old residents end up paying more in taxes. . Yes it works in places like Milton or Wasaga where cookie cutter subdivisions and high lot levies build on the great pyramid scheme of growth but that bubble is going to burst also.

Grabmor was lightning quick to ask to participate in any infrastructure. They said hey we can create 120 more lots where we had 480 approved. Another million profit. How will you refuse the next developer to step up and ask?

Most of you don't know who the SONR group was. It was a community organization active in 2004 who said Save Our Natural Retreat. Sauble is a unique community with a character flavoured by many open spaces and trees. By far most residents want to keep it the way it is. Infilling and subdivisions don't fit the vision of the many families who bought here many years ago and like the place the way it is warts and all. More recent cottagers and residents often buy here for the same qualities.

All of this is said for the benefit of some newcomers to the discussion. Talk of growth must be tempered wwith thr realization that it will cost you more then you get from it.

Now we have a tourism promotion officer that costs $130,000 a year working out of Wiarton. Other than filling the Wiarton accomodations for one weekend in February there is no payback for this expenditure. Beach maintenance is north of $350,000 and rising with a few determined people like Mark Wunderlich holding parking costs too low to recover any of it. Airport deficits are costing the two municipalities $150,000 per year and no benefit to show for it.

We keep 45% of the property taxes collected to run the Town. The rest go to County and education. Think of it as every million we spend we need to collect 2 million. We can't do much about assessments but we could do a lot to lower taxes. A lot of little amounts add up. Think about that when you get your final tax bill.

I have before me the minutes of a 1995 meeting on the water and sewer EA. Twelve years since have passed and nothing changed. It notes that water quality samples were not much changed since the early eighties. Wonder what it will say in 2015?

Ah well let the dogs bark. It is budget season.

Get out the shovel

Dan O. — Fri, 30 Mar 2007 20:10:24 -0400

mxyzptlk; I didn't mean for you to take it that you don't know what infrastructure is. My point was that if the town built a larger plant than could be utilized within a few years the costs to those that did hook up and to the tax payers would be too high. This excess capacity is easily utilized for "new" development and the original problem isn't solved.

vinylgirl; your shovel use is very welcome. If you ever reach the time where you're fed up to the point that you don't want to use it, you lose by default.

On the septics; if a truck carrying toxic waste dumped it's load in a ditch next to the beach there would be no question about the company cleaning it up. What gives a person the right to dump his sewage (out of sight) in the same location? A sewage system removes the town's headaches of enforcing private systems. The alternative must be strict enforcement.

Please; could anyone here truthfully say that they like driving in Sauble on a long weekend. How would it be if every weekend was a long weekend? Where do those people spend their money? The beer/liquor store, grocery store, campgrounds, local restaurants. I admit that they create employment by requiring extra policing and garbage removal but I wanted to be a Walmart greeter when I retire :) Some of them are even learning to take the back roads and park on side streets. This should be a right restricted to locals.

SBP isn't the same SBP it was a hundred years ago. No one said that development can't take place. The area has advantages that attract development. It's just that in the end you have to have a goal, a picture of what it will be like in another hundred years. You can every service that exists (sewage, water, transit, etc.) but you have to pay for it. To economically pay for it, you have to increase density of people. You make the decision to sacrifice quality for quantity.

My job is totally different from what I went to school for or even my first, second or third positions in my company (OK, I can't hold a steady job). If there are no young children to look after, seize the opportunity to look after the age group at the other end of the population. When you've got lemons you make lemonade.

Then you find a good place near the beach to sell the lemonade. You make enough money to move to Wasaga Beach and smile while everyone keeps disagreeing in Sauble.

Dan O.

There are a lot of others

vinylgirl — Fri, 30 Mar 2007 18:33:23 -0400

There are a lot of others who agree as well. Again, as I have said before, there are many who don't want the Beach changed, and are quite happy with their septics and wells. For those with questionable systems, get them fixed. It's a heck of a lot cheaper than pipelines and sewage. THERE ARE MANY WHO CANNOT AFFORD THIS ROUTE. (Read the Stat's Canada website on income levels of the SBP).

Many people have moved to Sauble because it IS NIRVANA. It's not Grand Bend, it's not Bayfield, it's Sauble, it is a beautiful little oasis. They have moved here because of this, NOT because they are hoping that a pipeline and sewage is installed.

Tax payers (I realize that I am not one yet, and hope not to be for a while, (it's my parent's home, previously a family cottage for over half a century)), should not be footing the bill for businesses that run only a few months out of the year. What is given back to those who live there year round? More tacky bikinis, that you could go to a city for, and buy for a lot less. Tourists are just that, tourists. They come up for the day, and leave. The town should not be doting on them. Do the tourists really care about sewer and water, many of them just want to enjoy the natural scenery without the hustle and bustle of the other beaches.

Just because a town has a pipeline and sewage does not mean it will prosper and industry or business will flock. All you have to do is look at small towns with sewer and water who are floundering.

New development? Let them pay for it. Many people don't want more development.

As for property values going up. . .who cares. Who wants their value to go up unless they are going to sell? And just because it is assessed at a certain number, does not necessarily mean you are going to sell your property for that. MPAC is a farce.

Right now, I am fed up with numbers and all the jargon. I am fed up with people flinging their "intestinal fortitude" (a term which has been flung around so much lately, it is devoid of meaning).

I have tried to back away from this debate, because most of it has been repetitive and in many cases redundant, just like my post.

(edited for apostrophe purposes http://www.apostrophe.fsnet.co.uk/)

not a cottager

mxyzptlk — Fri, 30 Mar 2007 16:37:59 -0400

waltieb, at least we can agree that the issue is difficult and won't be solved easily.

but, what about enforcing our existing septic bylaws? if improper septics are indeed a major pollution problem, then shouldn't the town be enforcing the laws we already have in place to deal with this? why should property owners who are breaking the law get away with it while the town struggles to find a longer term solution? why have a bylaw if it is not going to be enforced?

i'm new to this web site ... where can i find the "phantom pipeline" information...thanks

kltpzyxm

not a cottager.

skyhawk — Fri, 30 Mar 2007 15:33:00 -0400

mxyzptlk, (whatever) by now I get the clear impression that it will take a long time before the real important issues relating to Sauble can serioulsy be addressed and solved by the people and their elected politicians. At this juncture it appears that there is little hope of succeeding. It seems that both sides on the "for development" and "against development" file are in a non compromising mood. Some fear that their quality of life will suffer, and others can only see the positive in planned economic development. This split in attitude by the local population clearly shows up in the current pipeline and sewer debate, which is going nowhere fast. The money issue overrides all of the above and unfortunately needs to be resolved beforehand. I would guess, that whatever happens there will be extra costs to the taxpayers. Be it for a completed EA or a full or a smaller version of a water and sewer system for Sauble.
In the meantime, my previous comments about the Phantom Pipline may include some facts for consideration in the short term.
Since I can add little else to this debate, from now on I'll pay more attention to my homemade Austrian wine operation.(for peronal consumption, of course)
Prost!

not a cottager

mxyzptlk — Fri, 30 Mar 2007 13:10:28 -0400

walter, please get your facts straight before you put your foot in your mouth. i am a full time resident of tsbp. i have lived here since 1972 and raised my family of three children here. i pay taxes here like everyone else that lives here full time.

wayne, my comment regarding moving was prefaced by 'if a town like wasaga beach is of interest to you'. if so, why stay here when wasaga and grand bend are already what you are looking for. other than that, i do appreciate different points of view.

i'm not suggesting closing cottages with bad systems _at_the_expense_of_the_town_. where did you get that idea? i just want our local govenment to enforce the laws they already have in place. better to employ someone locally than spend tens of thousands of dollars (power budd) chasing a pipe dream.

i know your post is tongue in cheek, so maybe vince could sell the school too (tic)

oh, and the name is mxyzptlk...

kltpzyxm

do we want the wasaga beach of the peninsula?

beendere — Fri, 30 Mar 2007 13:04:33 -0400

I have to add more to this thread. I have friends who live there now but for some time used their place as a summer home. They are on their own well and septic system. As recently as two weeks ago there was major flooding and possible concern about wells there and the people were advised you are responsible for your own wells. At one time the whole of Wasaga Beach had no infrastructure in place...but they decided to start small and build and so now most of the downtown area is covered by water and wastewater treatment facilties( I dont know how the funding was handled but certainly over the last few years it has been development fees that drove changes)Now let us talk here on the peninsula. I have heard all the dreams...the software capital of the world/the resort playground of Ontario/some cottage industries that no one has thought of yet and yes the list goes on. But we need to use some logic here..remember we have two really good beach months...maybe push it to three and then we have winter. The place is shut up dead. There are odd visits by snow people but the numbers are not great. Look around this place... other communities have infrastructure and are they booming ..no..they have a slow but steady growth that the area can accomodate. We dont have a road network in place to handle high volumes of vehicles..our internet capabilities are spotty at best. Yes Wasaga has growth but you can commute to Toronto from there....not here for sure! Even Grand Bend is dead during our long cold months and they are only 45 minutes from London. We do not have the jobs close to us for people to come...this is not the nature of our world here no matter how much we dream. The economic development department in the town shows that the major employers are quarries. food stores, school board and the TBSP..so what does this say? We will never be a major player in Ontario..we need to work within the framework we have ..we need to build an infrastrucutre plan that starts small and grows. If the senior level of governments have consistently said the pipleine project is too big a cost for so few a number of properties we need to adjust . Stop believing that Nirvana is coming.....we have to solve any issues ourselves and I will pay for the portion that is mine but not for everyone else.

So What's Happening?

Dan O. — Mon, 19 Mar 2007 20:27:01 -0400

Tomorrows the big day. The public and politicians have had 2 weeks of fresh air to get their thinking straight. Without attacks on individuals, or changing the subject:

What new information will come to light tomorrow?

Will people vote with all of the facts understood?

Or did we just pay two more weeks of salaries to subject the town to more of the same?

The only thing that I'm sure of is that the town needs to hire a tutor in groundhogese before Feb 2 2008.

Dan O.